The Story of Poitín - a Conversation with Pádraic Ó Griallais from Micil Distillery

We talk poitín, Ireland, and a bit of everything else.

I won’t lie, the first time I tried poitín I had to hide my reaction as I choked it back. I remember it was strong as hell, but of course I could handle it, I was a man. In reality I was 26 or so, still wet behind the ears, and had the idea of taste but not actual taste. But the story of poitín was intoxicating enough - wars, smuggling, bogs, and good booze.

Fast forward a few years and my experience this time was far different. I’m a handful of grey hairs older and my liver sufficiently grizzled. Of course, it doesn’t hurt having one of the best distillers in Ireland pour you a few drams.

In November, I spent a few nights in Galway, Ireland, on my annual Thanksgiving trip. I caught up with Pádraic Ó Griallais from Micil Distillery, a sixth-generation poitín distiller. Though poitín has been around since the 14th century, it had been illegal to distill in Ireland for over 300 years until 1997. In 2016, Pádraic and his brother Jimín opened Micil Distillery to share their generational knowledge and craft to revive the lost story of poitín. Since then, they’ve gone on to won awards for their poitín, gin, and Irish whiskey, establishing themselves as one of the best craft distilleries in Ireland.

On a cold November night in Galway, Pádraic was kind enough to let me sample some of his spirits and chat about Ireland, poitín, and a bit of everything else. Below is a transcript of our conversation, lightly edited for clarity, length, and organized into sections:

• On Opening a Distillery

• On Poitín

• On Language

• On Ireland

• On Pubs

• On Irish Whiskey

• On Politics

It’s lengthy but there’s something for everyone, so I picked out a couple snippets to give you an idea of some sections.

On Poitín

Skylar: In 2013, you said you had the idea to start the distillery. Why did you think that was the moment the story of poitín needed to be told?

Pádraic: I think just delving into the story around tequila and how it became well known around the world - human beings like a story. I suppose what resonated with me or that kind of gave me that eureka moment was the fact that tequila was poorly understood for quite a long time. And in Ireland we make poitín. People think of it as a coarse and aggressive drink, but poitín has all the craftsmanship, all the heritage, and it's a fine spirit when it's made well.

So I thought, why isn’t it being made? And the sad part about poitín, and the infuriating part as well, is the only reason it was illegal was because the British authorities made it illegal. So I guess one part of me was wanting to tell the story, but another part of me also had that kind of chip on the shoulder, chip on the Irish shoulder, that the whole reason this thing was illegal was because of imperialism. So there were two driving forces, to sort of bring it back because it was banned and also just tell the real story.

Skylar: Stick it to England.

Pádraic: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

On Ireland

Skylar: But over the last 20 years or so, what's changed? What's different? Do you see wealth getting distributed differently? Does that change the, how people interact? Does it change the mindset of the Irish at all?

Pádraic: 100%. Yeah, it's a fascinating and relevant topic. I would say if you compare Ireland to the likes of the UK or the US, we tend to mix, you know, it doesn't matter where you come from. And this is truer in the likes of Galway or other smaller cities, but also even in Dublin. People from different socioeconomic backgrounds would tend to mix freely and easily as in you could be drinking a pint in the same pub and you're on social welfare, and you could be speaking to one of the wealthiest people in the country around the same time. That level of sort of, you know, how to put it, being able to mix in the same circles still exists here. So although some people are wealthier and some people are poor, the gap between super wealthy here and super poor is not as big as, this is my observation and my kind of a view on it.

On Irish Whiskey

Pádraic: What makes us actually different here is that we're not whiskey producers who make poitín, we're poitín producers who make whiskey. So that's our reflection of the world.

Skylar: How does that change the way you go about producing your gin or whiskey?

Pádraic: I would kind of call it intuitive distilling…

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Note: In the future, the full transcript of my conversations with folks like Pádraic are likely to be for paid members only. In the next few weeks I’ll share more information, but for now you can read about the member benefits here.

Here’s the entire conversation with Pádraic, lightly edited for clarity, length, and organized into sections -

On Opening a Distillery

Skylar: When I started looking into poitín and the story behind it, I came across Micil a few years back. You were one of the first to start distilling it again - you started this in 2016, is that right?

Pádraic: Correct, yeah, so the process started long before that. I would have been working in education and left that in 2015, and a very enjoyable career. But my sights were set on a family legacy, which was distilling poitín. It was a considered jump, it wasn't just like one morning that I woke up and thought, oh, I'm going to make poitín legally - it was fairly carefully planned. No amount of planning anyway would prepare you for big steps like that. It's been a journey.

Skylar: So what were the small steps leading up to it that you were thinking about for a few years?

Pádraic: Well, I think the whole bottom of the iceberg is the five generations before my brother and I were distilling poitín. And then I was reading about tequila and mezcal, really following the journey. And one of the days I just got this sort of, I feel like, I don't know what the right word is. I don't want it to sound like too kind of profound or anything like that. But yeah, I got this idea that we need to tell the story of poitín. And it was a really kind of strong, kind of vivid idea and realization.

So I think the decision was sort of formed at a gut level at that stage that this was something I wanted to kind of investigate more. So fast forward to, I don't know, 2013 or something to that effect. I was doing research for a number of years, you know, no rush. Anyway, just decided, yeah, let's keep progressing.

So I took some steps to set up a distillery. I had applied for planning permission for a building in Connemara on the family farm. But you know what, the world has a way of telling you this is the way it's going to go. And you might have a plan in your head, but chances are it's going to sort of steer you in a different direction. So long story short, we didn't get permission to build a distillery. We did from the county council, but then another organization was permitted to object. So they objected. We went to the National Planning Authority and they basically, sided with the objector, so they rejected.

I was like, okay, I still want to start the distillery. I was going to partner up with a sales and distribution company here in Ireland called Richmond Marketing. So I went to some of the local breweries because to distill whiskey or to distill poitín, you need to have the ability to make beer or wash. So I thought maybe some of the breweries will be open to this. Maybe I could buy wash from them or maybe I could put a still into their brewery. Who knows?

I went to the likes of the guys in Galway Bay Brewery and the two co-founders were there. And I suppose I had that imposter syndrome, you know, the hell is this guy? I've never run a commercial distillery. Yes, I know how to brew and distill, but you know, not for the masses, just for friends, family and community. But anyway, the guys miraculously, thought it was a great idea and were happy to support whatever way that would be.

They said they didn't have any room to add anything more because they were actually running out of capacity, but their original brewery was currently idle and they moved out of it because it's too small. I could go take a look and if it suited, I could lease it off them. So anyway, that was 2015, and the first drop of poitín, I believe came to market in May 2016. So basically from rejection in autumn 2015, to having the distillery up and running in 2016 - it wasn't that bad?

Skylar: Pretty quick.

Pádraic: Yeah, yeah, it was very quick. So that was the background and, you know, just in terms of the name, Micil, so that's our great-great-great-grandfather's first name. So, my grandfather, who's since passed away, myself and himself were pretty close. And he was a storyteller or what's known in Ireland as a seanchaí. And I love the stories and hung around with him a lot and farmed with him and stuff like that. I was always fascinated by the stories, but I also got to pick up stuff that you learn when you're around that kind of generation, you know, how to build stone walls, how to look after livestock the way they did, anything from growing potatoes to cereals, and how to make poitín. It was a wealth of education.

On Poitín

Skylar: Was your grandpa making poitín when you were growing up?

Pádraic: He was, yeah. So it was very much there, but it wasn't, you know, large scale production. This again was for friends, family, and a bit of community.

Skylar: It was still technically illegal, right?

Pádraic: 100%, yeah, it was illegal. It's still illegal to make poitín unless you have a license to make it. People still think, you know, after all this time that poitín is still illegal.

Skylar: Is there still a little mystery or miseducation around poitín?

Pádraic: Yeah, a lot of misinformation. People think one of the biggest misconceptions is, well, you know, is it legal? No. Is it made from potatoes? No. How do you drink it? You know, so there are some of the questions that we're still answering from people. Funny enough, we were at a festival this past weekend called Poitín Now. I believe this is its third year, maybe it's the fourth. Anyway, don't quote me on the number of years, but yeah, we've been going every year since it began, but it's a great initiative. It's funny kind of how the category has become better known, but still needs to get known way, way better over the next number of years.

Skylar: In 2013, you said you had the idea to start the distillery. Why did you think that was the moment the story of poitín needed to be told?

Pádraic: I think just delving into the story around tequila and how it became well known around the world - human beings like a story. I suppose what resonated with me or that kind of gave me that eureka moment was the fact that tequila was poorly understood for quite a long time. And in Ireland we make poitín. People think of it as a coarse and aggressive drink, but poitín has all the craftsmanship, all the heritage, and it's a fine spirit when it's made well.

So I thought, why isn’t it being made? And the sad part about poitín, and the infuriating part as well, is the only reason it was illegal was because the British authorities made it illegal. So I guess one part of me was wanting to tell the story, but another part of me also had that kind of chip on the shoulder, chip on the Irish shoulder, that the whole reason this thing was illegal was because of imperialism. So there were two driving forces, to sort of bring it back because it was banned and also just tell the real story.

Skylar: Stick it to England.

Pádraic: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Skylar: Is it fair to say, the taxation of it back in the day and then the outlaw of it was basically a form of revenue generation and then just suppression, right? I mean, that's kind of essentially what it was.

Pádraic: 100%, yeah. Monopolization, I would say, was another thing. We started making poitín here in Ireland around the 14th century and all was well. Then in 1661 the tax was first introduced. That didn't really work out so well for them because most people decided either they can't pay it or they won't pay it. You know, it's all interwoven with colonization and imperialism.

So it was basically outlawed because the authorities couldn't collect taxes on it. Then in 1731, a minimum pot still sizing law came into play. It's actually where the word poitín is important because it comes from pota, which means small pot. So poitín is a reference to the small pot stills used.

Skylar: And that was a tax on volume, right? Or the size of the still.

Pádraic: Yes, correct. It was based on the size of the equipment, not on what was actually produced. That actually was a catalyst for the production of bad quality whiskey. But I'll just go back to sort of the changes in laws, not to get overly pedantic about kind of dates. But in 1731, the minimum still size was introduced. So you couldn't actually get a license for anything beneath approximately, I don't know, 1000 liters. If you look at the average still size of the potting producers, it was somewhere around a quarter of that. So effectively what was being done is they were sort of creating a barrier to entry that 99% of these small distillers couldn't do. So that was effectively wiping out that little industry. Big pot stills became a part of Parliament Whiskey, small pot stills became the legacy of poitín.

Skylar: Was poitín generally more for the community or was there still an economy? Were people trading and bartering and buying poitín or was it mostly informal and used for like communal, you know, celebrations and gatherings?

Pádraic: It was sold. And, uh, but it was given as well, you know, and as you said, bartered. There were a number of markets in Galway city and people from Connemara would bring poitín in, but they'd have to disguise it. So they'd put bottles of poitín in the turf or it would be hidden in hay or something like that. You'd hide the poitín in there or even in seaweed.

There was one story from Connemara where a distiller was delivering poitín to a publican in the city. I think it was a gallon or two he was delivering. It was a weird scenario, the publican said he had a friend and asked if he'd bring him a gallon?

And the distiller said, okay, but it's going to take me like a number of weeks because I don't have any right now. He said, that's fine. So the publican actually wanted to get the distiller in trouble for whatever reason. I don't know, maybe it was just pure spite. So he gave him the address of a detective's house who lived along the docks. He brought the barrel or the gallon of poitín as he promised to the door of this man.

He knocks on the door and the detective, you know, came out to the door and quite surprised to see, somebody in the door and he says, um, how are you doing? The distiller says, yeah, good. Um, I'm just here with your gallon. And the detective's kind of like, what's going on here? He wanted to fish out, you know, what's the story here?

So he said, Oh, uh, yeah, sure. And he said, what do I owe you? So he thought on his feet and he paid the distiller and he said, who do I owe thanks to for getting this to me? The distiller was like, I don't want to tell you because you know, the guy, um, the guy who asked me to bring it to you said that you'd rather maintain confidentiality, he didn't want any praise for it.

The detective said, no, no, I really want to, you know, I want to thank him personally. The distiller says, sure. He just said it was the publican in town. So the detective didn't do anything about the distiller, but he raided the publican several days later. So there you go.

Skylar: That's something I would do, you know, I don't care about you, but the other guy who ratted you out, you gotta get the snitch over here.

Pádraic: Yeah. So that was published at the time. He wouldn't have gotten raided otherwise, so he was the one caught with poitín. You know, so there you go. Yeah.

Skylar: Some of the old stories, are those just orally passed down?

Pádraic: Oh yeah, 100%. So again, I was lucky because my grandfather was seanchaí, which means storyteller or someone who preserves the wisdom and not just for a family, but for the whole community.

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On Language

Skylar: Was poitín distilling mostly on the western side of Ireland?

Pádraic: The general rule, obviously exceptions to the rule, but the general rule is the further west you went and the further north you went, the more poitín became prevalent. It was more remote and less populated in the west. And then the opposite of that of course is the further east and further south you went, the less likely you were to find poitín production - England was closer, the authorities were closer and more plentiful.

Also the closer you were to the east coast, the more inclined you would be maybe to be only English speaking rather than Irish speaking. So it's funny, there's a correlation between poitín making and the Irish language because the Irish language, at least native Irish speakers where it's exclusively been passed down from generation to generation, would mostly be kind of remote pockets on the west coast of Ireland.

Skylar: Does the name and word poitín have significant weight here? Or, you know, could you call it Irish neutral grain spirit or something like that, right?

Pádraic: It does have weight, it does have meaning, it has a great deal of importance and that's the reason why I feel strongly that the technical file, you know, is a really important thing for us. We've actually had some ongoing discussions about as a category, you know, what should we be enhancing in the technical file, whether that's through the deletion of, or the attempt to delete some phrases or the clarification of some phrases.

Skylar: How much you leave open to ambiguity versus like a strict definition, right? Like do you say it has to be made through this or you say like, you know, made in a certain way, but it's more ambiguous and so open to interpretation about how it's like, how you thread that needle.

Pádraic: Yeah. It's a challenge. Thankfully, most people in the poitín category are respecting the traditions and, you know, pushing the boundaries a little, doing a bit of innovation, which I think is important. But not going so far as just to, I mean, would a pink poitín be appropriate? In my opinion it wouldn't because it goes so far away from tradition. But if somebody, you know, does a fruit infused poitín that is actually sticking with tradition because it was done and it was done with a variety of fruits and stuff like that.

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On Ireland

Skylar: It’s fascinating how the Irish language correlates to the poitín making as well. Is there still a divide between Western Ireland and Eastern Ireland? If you go to the East, is it like all those Dubliners who are fancy city folk, and then you come over to Connemara and it's a little more, you know, rural farming?

Pádraic: Yeah, it's interesting. There's definitely differences, you know, many cultural and linguistic differences. If you listen to accents in Dublin city, there's quite a difference between north and south and of course you get accents that are neither north nor south. They're sort of a hybrid that happens a lot in accents and dialects, but I think that's a reflection of the mix of socioeconomic groups. Historically south Dublin would have been the more affluent, but the wealth has spread all over now.

Coming back to the sort of the west and east, it's a different culture. It's a different mentality, how people in the west versus the east live. And the thing that people remember and mention about what brought them here or why they like it, they would say it's kind of like just the energy or the feeling that they get when they're here. I can't accurately describe what that is. I'm sure it's personal to everybody, but whatever it is, there seems to be some sort of correlation there.

But to be honest with you, I find people from all over pretty approachable.

Skylar: The stereotype is that everyone is super warm and welcoming, right? Like generally across the board and everyone's just so generous.

You brought up the wealth, which is another interesting topic with Ireland. I know there's quite a housing crisis going on right now and, I mean Dublin is a tech hub - most American tech companies set up their EU offices there. So how has that shifted and changed the landscape of Dublin and Ireland writ large? Maybe there are many factors, it's not just like the tech, but that could be a contributing one too. But over the last 20 years or so, what's changed? What's different? Do you see wealth getting distributed differently? Does that change the, how people interact? Does it change the mindset of the Irish at all?

Pádraic: 100%. Yeah, it's a fascinating and relevant topic. I would say if you compare Ireland to the likes of the UK or the US, we tend to mix, you know, it doesn't matter where you come from. And this is truer in the likes of Galway or other smaller cities, but also even in Dublin. People from different socioeconomic backgrounds would tend to mix freely and easily as in you could be drinking a pint in the same pub and you're on social welfare, and you could be speaking to one of the wealthiest people in the country around the same time. That level of sort of, you know, how to put it, being able to mix in the same circles still exists here. So although some people are wealthier and some people are poor, the gap between super wealthy here and super poor is not as big as, this is my observation and my kind of a view on it.

If you go to the US, the gap between super wealthy and super poor is absolutely enormous. Here, that gap isn't as big because we have a lot in the middle, but that shift that's changing though. And unfortunately the middle isn't getting bigger. The middle is eroding and what's happening is a certain number are going up to the, you know, very high income brackets and a certain amount are going down. So I think the middle is being eroded. To what extent the bottom and the top are growing. I don't know.

On Pubs

Skylar: I find this fascinating. In the US, we have, like you said, a huge wealth disparity. I mean, it's, yeah, it's just crazy. Culturally speaking, the things that people from varying economic backgrounds value are also significantly different. You wouldn't go to a pub together - we don't have pubs.

Pádraic: You're missing out!

Skylar: Let me tell you, man. It's sad. I mean I attribute a lot of that kind of social mixing to places like pubs.

Pádraic: The pub is such an important piece of our culture. And anybody who kind of sees us just on one level, isn't seeing the full picture, it's very easy to dismiss tradition. So sometimes, you know, parts of our culture, parts of stuff that we do, might not necessarily be in vogue, and they might not seem like the freshest of ideas, but, you know, they were there for a reason. And these reasons were kind of well thought out over many, many generations as to why these things were good ideas. The pub is one of those great ideas.

People have a fascination with thinking, you know, alcohol is bad, it's damaging, blah, blah, blah. Of course, it is when it's consumed in excess. But nobody focuses on, you know, the other aspects of it. They don't see the details, the devil's in the details. And when you remove something, you think the whole ecosystem will continue to function in the absence of that small piece. But the reality is, sometimes that small piece can be a whole catalyst, could be the keystone that holds it all together. And I'm not suggesting that the pub holds the whole community together. But one of the things you mentioned there was sort of the conversations that can happen between rich and poor, or just differing opinions. People, you know, are actually able to sit down, talk to each other, listen to each other.

And it's not just the pub, but I think as a society as well, we used to be able to do that a lot more. Now views are just becoming more and more polarized. And you know, people aren't prepared to listen to the other side like they used to. And you know, you'd still maybe disagree with someone, you'd disagree and you'd actually have respect for, that's their view. I don't subscribe to it, but you know what, they're entitled to their view. So there needs to be a bit of sort of give and take and a bit of compromise. And you know, the pub is just one of those examples.

Skylar: And they're still a human being too, right? You see them still as a person. You're like, you're sitting down, like it's not just like some boogeyman, some enemy that you're thinking about. There's a person behind these reasons.

Pádraic: Exactly. And like, you know, social media is great, but it also has the drawback of the algorithm. It feeds you what you've engaged with most. And if you engage with one side, you'll only get fed that line of thinking. You don't get fed alternative ideas because it doesn't actually work that way.

But anyway, that's a whole other topic. But in the pub, it's not just a place to drink, it's a place to converse, it's a place to meet. People used to meet there as well and they still do, you know, after funerals or the second day of a wedding, all this kind of stuff. It was there to celebrate and mark the sad and the happy occasions.

Skylar: How are pubs doing? Are they closing like in England?

Pádraic: They are closing. Yeah, there are pubs, there are restaurants closing. Part of the problem there is just landlords looking for too much rent. They can charge it, it's a supply-demand scenario. And that is probably the greatest, I would say, thing that's killing pubs, restaurants, sort of around the country at the moment.

Ireland as well is a bit of a hangover after COVID. Some of these pubs and restaurants were able to delay or put the tax payments on the long finger. But then when they're being asked now to pay it and they can't, you know, and that's having an effect as well. So that's kind of what's going on, excessive rents and then energy prices obviously did go up and not everything else up. So everybody's kind of, you know, general expenses have gone up. But I would say, and again, I'm not able to sort of say it for fact, but I would say the rents are disproportionately high here for businesses versus other countries.

On Irish Whiskey

Skylar: The Irish Whiskey category has been booming.

Pádraic: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I would agree with you. So Jameson is the leader in Irish Whiskey and has done a phenomenal job, but my concern for the category is that we haven't created enough education around Irish Whiskey. I don't think we've explored the whole spectrum of it.

You know, and I think people unfortunately still see Irish Whiskey in a more modern view of it - it's sweet, it's light, it's smooth. If you ask a lot of people around the world what they know about Irish Whiskey, I don't think they'll be able to tell you much about it or if you might know many brands. So I think we're still in its infancy and it's part of these growing and teething problems.

Skylar: The most likely comparison is Scotch, obviously. And Scotch has a lot of lore behind it. Like everyone, not everyone, but if you are a connoisseur of spirits, you tend to know different regions in Scotland, have different profiles. So there's more lore around Scotch as a category than Irish Whiskey. Do you think that's changing?

Pádraic: It is. I don't know how long the journey is going to take, but there's still a lot to do. Still a lot of educating to do around, you know, the depth and breadth of the Irish Whiskey category. What makes us actually different here is that we're not whiskey producers who make poitín, we're poitín producers who make whiskey. So that's our reflection of the world.

Skylar: How does that change the way you go about producing your gin or whiskey?

Pádraic: On a really kind of basic level, we use smaller pot stills. Typical of Irish whiskey, particularly with the larger producers, you'd see stills in the tens of thousands of liters, whereas with poitín producers, we're much, much smaller than that, a fraction of that size. That does have an influence on the spirit as well.

As poitín producers, we're also very resourceful. Resources came into it historically because we'd be using cereals that were available that season. So, if you had a better yield one year in your barley, that would have a knock-on effect on your mash bill. And let's say a following year, your barley yield is down and your oats are up, your mash bill would change. So, you were using the cereals that you had available. We're using sort of, you know, the best casks, the best cereals, we're not rigid and can embrace new ideas.

I would kind of call it intuitive distilling as well. But Jimín in here, like myself, when he's distilling, he noses the spirit and tastes it to make the cuts and stuff like that, so he's not reliant on just ABV or this volume coming off the still. It's very much based on sense and intuition.

On Politics

Skylar: Not to get too political either, but I was reading about the snap election coming up here too. So what's the vibe in the country right now? You don't have to pick a party, but I'm just curious, like what's the energy in the country right now?

Pádraic: It's a weird energy, to be honest. And they call it a snap election, but they've been feeding out dribs and drabs of, you know, rumors that this is coming. When you start seeing the political parties here sort of throw you out bits of bait, you know.

It's kind of, how should I put it, they're kind of luring us like with little, little bonuses or little, how to put it, payoffs - they're greasing the wheels of it. And I haven't seen any real meaningful dialogue or ideas from any party, I have to say, or any candidate recently where I'd be like, okay, they've actually thought this through and they have a real desire for change. I feel that we're being kind of pandered to and that we're being, how should I put it, treated like kids.